My Take on Dumbledore, before the book

karlii26:
Veritas Vox Vocis
I do not think that DD is the Veritas Vox Vocis (voice of truth). DD wanted Harry to go to lessons with Snape. To facilitate this, Harry had to have a modicum of trust for the teacher. Or respect for DD's authority. Since we know Harry didn't trust Severus.. Harry had to then, have some respect yet, for DD's authority. When Harry began to question this authority.. DD brushed him off.. saying "I trust Severus Snape." No doubt DD was 'projecting' feelings of trust or whatever you want to call it. DD really NEEDED Harry to go to these lessons. DD, being an accomplished legilimens.. could have seen right away that Harry was in trouble with Voldy. As such.. shouldn't DD also be an accomplished Occlumens? If DD was an accomplished Occlumens... what was the big worry about Harry looking at him? Sure, Harry got a bit violent feeling when he saw DD.. but that would have helped, initially, to get Harry to try harder to Occlude. They might have been able to HELP him early on like that. But no.... DD made his spy give lessons on occlumency to Harry... knowing full well that Harry could not protect his mind from Voldy. This seems like a breach in security, if you ask me. DD couldn't risk Voldy getting into his mind via Harry.. ok.. but then to risk Sev's position? Unlikely. I think they both knew full good and well, that Voldy would see Sev 'teaching' Harry, and that THAT fact was factored into their plan. If McG.. or Flitwick.. or Bill Weasley.... or anyone else had taught Harry Occlumency, it'd be a good bet that Harry would have paid more attention and tried harder. If DD had explained more fully the ramifications of Voldy getting into Harry's head.. Harry might have tried harder. I do not believe DD's "cop out" story that he was just a blind old man.. too caught up in his love of Harry, to see the truth about how much Harry and Sev didnt' get along. Therefore, I do not think that TRULY teaching Harry to block his mind, was the objective at all. Even if Hagrid WAS on DD's side.. he still could have been part of this whole deal of opening Harry's mind. Think of what Hagrid said.. "Some say he died.. Codswollop, imo" (or words to that effect.. the book isn't by me right now). DD knew that Voldemort wasn't dead. What if DD decided that in order to gain more intelligence on the whereabouts/movements of Voldy.. he wanted to explore the possibility that a link between Harry and Tom existed. DD certainly didn't have any other way of knowing where Voldy was, did he? Sev's mark apparently didn't twinge when Tom was stuck on the back of Quirrell's head... so that wasn't a reliable means of detection... Obviously, any Foe Glasses, Sneak-o-Scopes, or other Dark detectors weren't showing anything when it came to Quirrell. Or not enough for anyone to question.. beyond his exposure to the dark elements in his fights??? I don't think she'll say that DD exploited Harry's link to Voldy.. but I see it as a possibility.. given the 'facts' we have. Back, for a minute to the idea that DD must have known that Sev's position would be seen by Voldemort, via Harry. Knowing that... and having those lessons go fwd anyhow.. speaks of the manipulation of events that has occurred. The pensieve memory also.. was designed to make Harry see Sev in a more sympathetic light. Snape could have done that, to have Harry feel poorly about his father and Sirius... OR..... DD could even have suggested it, knowing Harry would be too curious not too look (DD knew he did it before)... and I could see then, that DD hoped to facilitate more understanding for Sev/Harry. Was Sev's temper tantrum all an act? It was questioned before, as it was not a 'normal' tantrum for him... All designed to draw Harry into the scene.. believe it more fully... No.. I do not trust DD at all. I think he is for the side against Voldy, sure.. and that he has manipulated Harry and the Gang into position... but as the Veritas Vox Vocis? No. *ducks flames*_________________
What ever happened to _______??? *waits for bk8*
Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:45 pm


karlii26:
Overall, given the discussion Hagrid 'overheard' between Snape and DD, then any arguments Snape had were brushed off by DD, and he told Snape he would have to follow the plan through... irregardless of Sev's feelings on the matter. It happened once, in canon.. so it could have happened before. I think DD could have been calling on some VOW he had with Severus. That explains why he trusted him. It explains why Sev had to follow DD's instructions. (yes, we have been down this road). It could be said that Snape was merely taunting Harry at the end. ...I say, that I don't see how Snape could have 'gotten where he is', if he can't control his emotions better than that. But if Severus Snape really WANTS to help Harry.... and he is somehow constrained by DD from doing so, then he might have had to couch his words..... I say, he was trying to still help Harry with the advice. Now, think even back to the Quidditch game where Snape had to officiate. He was white-knuckled when it was over. Harry had just 'dive-bombed' past him to get the Snitch. I didn't get the impression that Sev was very comfortable on the broom to begin with. Harry thought he was just being an evil git.. but it also points to being scared to go up on the broom. DD actually attended that game, which was unusual enough, based on the remarks from Harry's teammates. It makes me think that DD told Snape to go up on the broom, to protect Harry from the air, or look for enemies, or something. This is another example of Severus having to do something he didn't want to, based on DD's vow with him, or hold over him. Actually, I hadn't compared this scene with the 'Lightning-Struck Tower' before, but there are some similarities, now that I think of it. So, maybe in the end, it was Snape trying to help Harry, going around the bond. Maybe DD was dead then, and the bond was negated.. or maybe DD wasn't dead yet.. and Snape still had to be careful how he said things. But I think he was trying to help Harry. Did Snape ever LIE to Harry? *holds fire extinguisher and Augamenti charm at ready* LOL_________________
What ever happened to _______??? *waits for bk8*
Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:01 pm


mrs fawlty:
I don't think Snape ever lied to Harry - only by omission, with regard to whatever he thought or felt about Lily: she is NEVER mentioned by Snape. I'm not even convinced that he lies habitually to anyone, though it does depend on how you read his weasel words to Bellatrix and to Draco, and I don't mind if people want to disagree with this opinion! My guess is that the relationship behind closed doors between Dumbledore and Snape is quite stormy, since I imagine their 'Harry Policy' differs substantially. I was quite happy in this opinion till book 6, when Snape suddenly gives out a mild series of detentions instead of expulsion to Harry for what anyone would call serious misconduct. I'd always thought Snape wanted him at Privet Drive where he was safe. Of course, time marches on, and with Voldy on the loose again, and Snape knowing (does he?) that DD will soon be dead, the safety of Privet Drive isn't what it was, especially as the protection it offers runs out next birthday. Speaking of time and birthdays, must get busy: JKR kindly elected to release DH on my *birthday, and I'm organizing a celebration for tomorrow evening prior to lining up at the bookshop, so there's potato salad to make, and a grill to clean.... see you in line! *It's my birthday and I'll cry if I want to??_________________
'...no practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences.' - Terry Pratchett
Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:38 pm


karlii26:
Yes, Snape's attitude toward Harry differed in bk6, didn't it? Or it seemed to. I figure he was bluffing when he clamored for Harry's expulsion. Sort of part of the act, wasn't it? At least, that's how I see it. But when it came down to it in the end, Snape kept Harry close at hand... apparently not even telling McG or DD about the Sectumsempra incident. I can't see what good the blood wards are, beings Tom used Harry's blood in his rebirthing ritual. But there must be SOMEthing to it. We'll see tomorrow night! I think Snape is the ultimate Spin Doctor. He can take the words of truth.. and make them say what he wants people to hear. Then, he can take the same words, and make a different group of people hear something different. All the same words. That'w what Spinners End was about, I think. He didn't say anything until Cissy or Bella did. Then, he didn't really SAY it was so... just that wasn't that what the Dark Lord thought? People take assumptions and make astounding leaps of logic all the time!! LMAO.. just look at us!! By the way... HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Mrs. Fawlty!!_________________
What ever happened to _______??? *waits for bk8*
Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:50 pm


greyniffler:
I think that the (ahem) riddle of why DD didn't look at Harry is answered by what happened in the Ministry: it invited Voldemort to take over Harry in order to attack Dumbledore, in Voldemort's hope that Dumbledore would strike back. Now that's not as complete an explanation as I would like, but I think yo uhave to look past it if you are going to ask questions. As to the NYT: the Grey Lady is continuing her descent to Bag Lady. I don't know if either Scholastic or Bloomsbury has any standing to sue, but I hope so. I think I can also guess which newspaper will get neither ads nor review copies from either of them._________________... and then you just have to play algebra ...
Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:45 pm


karlii26:
Greyniffler... I understand what you mean about fearing that the Dark Lord would possess Harry, and that would encourage DD to have no alternative but to attack him. However, the alternate actions taken by Dumbledore seem be nearly as 'horrific' anyway. It seems that to have just looked Harry in the eye, and dealt with it, would have been the short action.

In other words... dealing with Voldemort possessing Harry, mere weeks after his resurrection, seems like a better opportunity for victory, than waiting months for him to build up his strength. In the grand scheme of things, it appears that Dumbledore thought that delaying the inevitable (Tom possessing Harry) was a good/viable tactic.

Harry's mind was wide open to Tom, and Dumbledore knew it. (hence, he wouldn't look at him). Yet he put Severus in front of Harry, ostensibly to train him to block Voldy out. This means that Severus was expendable, in Dumbledore's organization. Or Severus was using that as dis-information.
Which, if it was DIS-information, then Dumbledore was behind it or in on it. Which indicates to me, that Dumbledore didn't really care how much or how fast Harry learned, as it all furthered DD's goals of eliciting information on Voldemort's movements. Perhaps even checking the veractiy of Severus' reports from meetings.

Harry was manipulated emotionally, by Voldemort, in bk5. But he was manipulated emotionally by Dumbledore all along. Left in an abusive home and ignored for ten years. Manipulated into attaining the prejudices of the Light side.. when indeed he was a blank slate.... (not that he shouldn't BE on the Light side.. merely that he was masterfully played.) Alternately shown favoritism and ridicule... Pushed beyond normal magical limits for his age... only to be ignored once again.. yet played like a violin. Shown memories to shake his foundation.. pushed into working with Snape... only to be told "it's just that I loved you too much"... (call out the advocates! That's pretty scarey stuff!).

Oh.. and then.. "I'm just an old man... you can forgive that can't you?"

*hands out handkies* Whatever..

Then.. in bk6, we see Dumbledore actually seem to treat Harry with a little respect. SEEM being the key word. He still ignored him.. he still kept him in the dark.. he still did not bother to SHOW Harry what he would need to know, in order to work with these adult wizards.. No... He used Harry in some sort of sub-plot of his own... keeping it all hush-hush.. and not able to tell Harry who his contacts would be, in case DD died. Now.. I know DD knew he was going to die. Yet he only left Harry with the option of Ron and Hermione. Children who hadn't finished school yet. The only thing they have attained, is the opportunity to apperate. I still say that would indicate that DD has an alternate plan running simultaneously. He'd about have to, eh? ........I think that is what Sev is up to.

Ok.. enough Dumbles-bashing.. I don't know what's gotten into me. But the more I look at this, the more I see his crafty plots. *stands in line quietly now*_________________
What ever happened to _______??? *waits for bk8*
Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:22 pm


greyniffler:
quote:
Originally posted by caseyanndigger: [...] Everyone had to be viewed as expendable -- Dumbledore was fighting a war. [...] The goal was to defeat Voldemort, for the sake of all the innocent lives that should be spared.
I'm still of the mind that the stakes might be bigger, that even Voldemort is only the face of some older, greater evil. Book 3 is about mistaken roles (as opposed to mistaken identities) and I expect that Book 7 will have at least one major surprise in who has played what role._________________
... and then you just have to play algebra ...
Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:57 am


karlii26:
Casetanndigger said: It would not have been a good idea to attack Voldemort while he was possessing Harry. The Horcruxes are still out there, remember?

I concur.. but that is not what I was talking about. I meant, if they had just DEALT with Voldemort possessing Harry earlier, then Voldemort might not have been as strong. Harry might have actually learned occlumency at that time. It just strikes me that Dumbledore's action on the matter was, in reality, more of a 'non-action'.

I'm not saying that Dumbledore sat in his office like a twisted freak. I'm saying he isn't a benevolant kindly old grandfather. He WAS a general in a war. But that doesn't allow me to condone his behavior.

They weren't in active warfare for the entire ten years Harry lived with the Dursleys. As far as him keeping things from Harry. Certainly, there are many, many things that are 'need to know'. But he is staking the fate of the Wizarding World on this kid. The kid should at least have a new mentor to turn to. Even if he doesn't choose to tell Harry all the members of the Order, or who the other spy in the DE is... There are things he could have done differently, to facilitate the maneuvers he needed.

As to what Dumbledore's motivations were. Hmm... I'd like to think he DID have the wizarding world in his best interests... but does the end always justify the means?

I just see a few opportunities for healing emotional wounds.. that, if Dumbledore truly cared for people.. he might have taken advantage of.. much sooner. It strikes me, that perhaps in his old age, he forgot that he was fallible.

Used to pulling the strings, he could have forgotten that the puppets might not appreciate the dance._________________
What ever happened to _______??? *waits for bk8*
Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:03 am